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Norma Rae 08-13-2013 06:05 AM

Sitchin, Zecharia. The 12th Planet.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hit chapter five this morning over coffee. Finally getting interesting! Have any of you out there read this book, and would you like to discuss here? I know I am a late-comer to his library, but better late than never!

Namaste from the Midwest,
Stephanie

SandraHelton 08-14-2013 04:13 PM

Love the Book
 
Hi Stephanie,

I love the book, bought it years ago - 3 times and each time someone borrowed the copies and never returned them. I gave up since I didn't seem to be able to stop lending them! Maybe sometime I'll get another copy...and hide it. : ) It's fascinating. He wrote quite extensively. Nice photo.

Sandra

Norma Rae 08-15-2013 10:34 AM

Thanks for the response, Sandra. I think you should definitely get another copy for yourself and join my little reading club here. I'm almost 1/2 through the darn thing now, and as I previously stated--it's getting durn interesting. My skeptical left-brain/lawyer-brain is having a little bit of trouble--at times--not engaging in debates in my mind with some of Sitchin's propositions. Again, I am only 1/2 through and maybe later he fills in a bunch of the holes that I seem to be seeing right now. For example, he often shows an illustration of a piece of a tablet from somewhere (yet does not cite where it came from, where it is now, how it was discovered, etc.), then makes the logical leap that the cylinder shaped object is "of course" a rocket ship. Now, maybe it is, but maybe it's not. My heart is certainly open to the possibility, but I don't think you can just look at an image with your 20th (or 21st) century lens and say, "ahha!" without digging deeper and making the connections without the assumptions.

But . . . I am confident that as I read further, he will make the connections. I am looking forward to that.

What I find more interesting is the progression of languages that he explores. How in the world did the word for "sky vehicle" become "name"? As he suggests, and I agree, the transformation of the word certainly obscures its origins and "real" meaning. However, I find it very magical that a name--my name, your name, etc.--could be some primordial attempt in which we all engage to make our own connection to the divine. With one word--a name--we create our own "sky vehicle" to the heavens.

Interesting.

Steph

p.s. Glad you liked the photo. I usually do not drink my coffee that milky--usually black--but was indulging that morning.

patswife 08-15-2013 05:38 PM

Hi Steph,
I love your questioning mind. I tend to take things at face value. Then when I read someone else's questions, I think, yeah, that is true--why didn't I think of that? So thanks for sharing your thoughts. If you find the answer to your questions, let us know.
By the way, I loved your photo also. Looks like a perfect way to start the day!
Love,
Joanne

SandraHelton 08-16-2013 11:07 AM

Coffee, aliens & names
 
Yes, his books are filled with many details and theories. Out of it all and along with others there is a theme that resonates for the bigger picture.

Well, coffee is almost like his theories and details - so many brands, flavors and ways to serve it!

The idea of links via ones names is quite romantic and also the suggestion of links to the universe is something I think anyway.

It sounds like you've absorbed much and are maintaining it to ponder and consider - that's great! That's the kind of mind needed in the New Age to sort through the myriad of 'stuff' and create some sort of balance. When I teach intuitive development one of my main criteria is to learn discernment that is also usually the last thing most want to exercise as it can take away the fantasy rather than working to have validated and significant data.

Will look for your other postings and evaluations.

s

Norma Rae 08-19-2013 07:09 PM

Sitchin, astrology, coffee & poetry
 
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Hello Sandra (and all)!

This weekend as I was reading Sitchin again on the patio, the sun struck my glass coffee mug at just the right angle to create a reflection of the mug's logo on the coffee. Looks like a fancy Teamster latte, eh?

Speaking of the sun . . . the planets . . . that brings us back to Sitchin . . . reading this book just reminds me of how very little I know and how very much I need to read and explore and learn and absorb. If only I could quit the job and read all day long every day (with a hike or two in between), then . . . perhaps . . . I would have a chance . . .

As I mentioned in prior posts, what I find least compelling about Sitchin's theories are his propensity to take art and writings at literally--as if they are not symbolic of anything other than what the text literally says or what the picture literally looks like (again, through a 20th/21st century lens). For example, I just read the sentence, "But why not take the epic at face value, as nothing more nor less than the statement of cosmologic facts." (p. 211 of my edition). I suppose the answer to my knee-jerk question of "why?!" is "why not?" Okay, that's valid, but my western-educational background of grad school and law just throw up all kinds of questions and skepticism. When I read historical documents, I tend to come from the assumption that it is highly symbolic and almost impossible to accurately interpret historically. But yes, I suppose I need to ask the questions "why not?" and "maybe it is a true historical document and not poetry or literature?" . . .

What I DO find most compelling about Sitchin's theories so far are (1) his linguistic explorations; and (2) his exploration of astrological knowledge and that the Sumerians knew more about astrology than their successors. Perhaps I find these theories--the latter in particular--most compelling due to my lack of knowledge on the topic. One of these theories is that the Sumerians actually knew that the planet was not flat and that it (along with other planets) orbited around the sun. They knew about each and every one of the plants in our solar system, the Earth's moon, etc. before later civilizations apparently forgot it and had to relearn it (why do we have to relearn things?! So frustrating!) So . . . if they were right about all of this, why wouldn't they be correct about this one other detail in their understanding of the solar system--the 12th planet. Sandra, perhaps you could shed some light on Sitchin's theories here--in particular (so far), Chapter 6 called "The Twelfth Planet"?

I have been reading a lot of poetry lately, and this morning was listening to Coleman Barks read his translations of the mystic Rumi. One poem stands out in my mind during this discussion of the planets, the sun, etc. I share it with you here:

-----
"Turn as the earth and the moon turn,
circling what they love.

Whatever circles come from the center."
----

Not only do we (and nature) circle what we love, but at the same time, we (who are doing the circling) are part of that center and that one big love.

Again . . . as Rumi wrote,

"I am so small
how can this great love be inside of me?"
----

But it is in me, you, and us all. . . .It always comes back to that, doesn't it?

I will stop my rambling now . . .
Namaste from the Midwest, Friends.

Stephanie

Norma Rae 08-20-2013 04:40 AM

P.S. Ironically, one paragraph after that Sitchin sentence about accepting an epic at face value and as fact, he launches into a 10+ page dissertation that interprets the epic as an allegory explaining the creation of the planets and Earth, etc. Ha! Busted, Sitchin! Maybe he will tie this allegory back to fact later?...now I am confused as to what is fact and what is fiction. Wait, they are the same, no? The Buddha might say so.

Namaste from the Midwest,
Stephanie

Norma Rae 08-23-2013 08:45 AM

change in perspective?
 
I have to say that upon finishing Chapter 7 "The Epic of Creation" this morning and beginning my drive into the office, I felt a change in perspective. As I drove, the moon was still looming in the western morning sky, and I felt a sense of . . . imagination and creativity (those are the best words I can harness right now to describe the feeling) . . . as I stared in wonder at "Kingu," as Sitchin calls the Moon in that chapter.

It felt like a small opening.

Huh? . . . Interesting!

Namaste from the Midwest,
stephanie

Norma Rae 08-27-2013 08:09 AM

Questions and Observations
 
Hello All!
I apologize for this long list of questions and observations, but I simply cannot help it while reading this book. Since nobody I know around me in my life here in the Midwest is reading this book, I am hoping one of you here are familiar with this work (Sandra? Others?) and would like to engage in a conversation:

Chapter 8, “Kingship of Heaven”

• What version of the Bible is he using? (p. 252). I believe he mentions it somewhere, but I cannot find the citation now. Is it the same version everytime? I am certainly not familiar with any type of translation like this.

• Is he skipping around Chapter/Verse?

• Sitchen states, “Is there life as we know it anywhere besides the planet Earth? Scientists now know that there are innumerable galaxies like ours . . . offering billions of chances of Life?” (p. 253). Question: why “life” with a lowercase at the beginning and then “Life” (capitalized)? What does he mean by "Life" with a capital "L"?


• Sitchin states, “Why is there only one genetic code for all terrestrial life? If life started in a primeval “soup,” as most biologists believe, organisms with a variety of genetic codes should have developed.” (p. 256). Anyone care to discuss? Or, anyone have a biology background? I believe I've heard SM proffer this question many times. Not sure if she's ever gotten an answer.


• Sitchin questions, “Why does the element molybdenum play a key role in enzymatic reactions that are essential to life, when molybdenum is a very rare element? Why are elements that are more abundant on Earth, such as chromium or nickel, so unimportant in biochemical reactions?” (p. 256). Again, this is a question I've heard SM ponder and, again, not sure if she's gotten a reasonable answer. Can anyone here shed some light on this very intriguing question that, like the previous questions, seems to suggest life on this planet has ET origins.


Chapter 9, “Landing on Planet Earth”

• Early in the chapter, Sitchin observes, “Scholars have been unable to understand a statement by Gudea, king of Lagash, that ‘the celestial 7 is 50.’ . . . Gudea stated that the celestial body that is ‘seven’ stands for the god that is ‘fifty.’ The god Enlil, whose rank number was fifty, had as his celestial counterpart the planet seventh.” (pp. 259-60).

Questions: (1) Who is Gudea? Did I miss this? And, (2) Why does Enlil rank as the number fifty? I think I missed something there.

Observations: (1) Very interesting, however, that the planets would be counted from the outermost planet—Pluto—inwards, which makes Earth the 7th planet. As Sitchin notes, how would Sumerians know of the outermost planets without a little . . . guidance, shall we say? (2) I note that 50 + 7 = 57 and 5 + 7 = 12 and 1 + 2 = 3 (Earth is the 3rd planet (not counting the moon—depending on its orbit) from the Sun. Not sure if Sitchin will mention that; just my own observations.

Would love to hear from you guys. Better yet, anyone want to join me in reading the book and discuss here?! I've got about 100 pages to go or so.

Love and light from the Midwest,
stephanie

Norma Rae 08-27-2013 03:36 PM

OH! . . . I just thought of the seven chakras! You know what that makes planet Earth counting from the outward in as Sitchin does?! The 7th planet; the seventh chakra; so close to the divine...Wow, this is starting to blow my mind...Also, a lovely idea of moving from the outward, in; from the macro to the micro; from that which circles to that which is circled--the center; from the higher self to the inner self...

Just lovely and so interesting!

Namaste from the Midwest, Friends.
Steph

P.S. I just thought of one of my two tattoos--a scene from Bergman's The Seventh Seal! Now I'm gonna have to re-watch that for meanings additional to why I first got the darn thing years ago while in grad school. And yes, the tattoo is of one of the concluding scenes where SEVEN characters are dancing in sillohette along the horizon.

patswife 08-27-2013 05:25 PM

Hi Steph,
Love reading your posts. They are always thought provoking and so interesting! I am not familiar enough with Sitchin's work to make an intelligent comment. I have only read one book. But you have inspired me to look into more of his books and ideas. I am going on vacation tomorrow, but will definitely be delving into this further when I get back!
By the way, will be in England and plan on taking one day to explore the Cotswolds--crop circle country! Hope to see something!
Love,
Joanne

Norma Rae 08-28-2013 06:04 AM

Do enjoy your vacation, Joanne! Look forward to your report back and to exploring some more Sitchin with you upon your return!

Namaste,
Steph

Norma Rae 08-28-2013 04:22 PM

Joanne--check out this week's guest on IE radio...crop circle expert. Hope you are able to tune in during your travels! Synchronicity strikes again? ;-)

Namaste from the Midwest,
Steph

P.S. Anyone wanna discuss Sitchin?! (Crop) reading circle anyone?

Norma Rae 08-28-2013 08:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norma Rae
What I find more interesting is the progression of languages that he explores. How in the world did the word for "sky vehicle" become "name"? As he suggests, and I agree, the transformation of the word certainly obscures its origins and "real" meaning. However, I find it very magical that a name--my name, your name, etc.--could be some primordial attempt in which we all engage to make our own connection to the divine. With one word--a name--we create our own "sky vehicle" to the heavens.


Sorry to go back to an old post here, but I just heard a Lucille Clifton poem that reminds me of the "naming" being our attempt to connect to the divine--our sky vehicle. Here are the lines that allude to the above ideas:

---
"here on this bridge between
starshine and clay, . . . "
----

Love the image of this mortal life and our attempts at "naming" as a bridge between starshine (star beings) and the clay of this Earth...

Also...*sigh* the connections just keep coming and won't stop and are starting to drive me batty...this poem refers to Babylon (ala Sitchen) and celebration (ala the EB thread Brit started about celebrating life)...perhaps I should post the entire poem somewhere?

Namaste Friends,
Stephanie

Norma Rae 09-04-2013 07:04 AM

Collective Bargaining of the Anunnaki
 
It was such a treat to read about the collective concerted action of the Anunnaki on this Labor Day of 2013. I just loved the story of the divine Anunnaki workers collectively laying their tools down, withholding their labor, and bringing their grievances to the Nefilim demanding reform. I imagine a "Jimmy Hoffa" encouraging the Anunnaki to "put the crates down and join the Teamsters." And I hope that there was a "Norma Rae" (or a "Stephanie") leading the charge! The "fact" that the resolution/compromise of the grievance was (or could have been) the creation of the human race just gives me chills.
A happy Labor Day, indeed!

Namaste and solidarity from the Midwest,
Stephanie

Norma Rae 09-06-2013 10:55 AM

Finished!
And how does Sitchin conclude this masterpiece? More questions! Well, I've got a question or two. Anyone care to discuss/debate/ponder?
Please!
Namaste from the Midwest,
stephanie

Norma Rae 09-18-2013 05:54 AM

Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel
 
My dear friend from grad school and TN mountain man, George, is reading Sitchin's The 12th Planet right now and has promised to discuss with me during one of our many, many Smoky Mountain hikes this year--possibly on the way to Gregory Bald or Thunderhead Mountain?

While discussing some of Sitchin's theories via telephone one day, George mentioned Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel as a possible companion book to our Sitchin discussion group. Anyone read this? There is also a National Geographic documentary based upon the book, which I now have thanks to George and will watch asap! Anyone familiar with Diamond's work?

Namaste from the Midwest,
Stephanie

Norma Rae 10-04-2013 08:14 AM

12/6/2009 IE Radio
 
Oh (wo)man! I listened to the 12/6/2009 IE broadcast interview with Barbara Hand Clow who apparently takes issue with Sitchin.

I have much work and reading to do now . . . and miles to go before I sleep.

Namaste from the Midwest,
steph

ban 10-04-2013 08:32 AM

Hi,

Could you please clarify - is that December 6th or June 12th 2009?

I found 2 interviews with BHC but neither title related to Sitchin so I'd appreciate the direction.

I find Sitchin's work interesting in so far as he has documented some very strange things from the ancient past from looking at the tablets - like why do they mention 12 planets?

The assumption, of course, is, that we have always been part of this solar system - which isn't necessarily true.

And also, I find that he and others who look into the past are very 'left brained' for lack of a better word. Basically, it's more complex than that - they don't seem to 'get' how people create myths - how people communicate and talk. And so a lot of things are seen as 'fact' when they are mythological ways of speaking.

Most of the people who have liked this theory follow along with the 'reasoning' and it holds - but life isn't pure reason - isn't now wasn't then.

A lot of the 'new age' history stuff seems to be written by people with the same sort of background - men; economics oriented; and aside from all of that - Sitchin set out to prove the bible was true.

So that in itself is non-scientific. A true scientist is meant to observe and draw conclusions while being aware of their own prejudices. I think this is where Sitchin falls short.

But I digress. Would appreciate the date clarification. I'm in Canada and I know Americans use a different date system - I think it's day first - but I use both so I can't ever remember!

Thank you.:)

Norma Rae 10-04-2013 09:58 AM

Hello. I was listening to the December 6, 2009 (which I believe was the second interview in the series) interview this morning. Sitchin is not in the title of the interview, but Shirley and Barbara jump right into discussing Sitchin and others I would say within about 15 or 20 minutes (maybe earlier) into the interview.

I am intrigued with your observation that Sitchin and the like are "left brain" folks (maybe that is why I devoured the book? Unfortunately (?), I've got quite the left-brain-educational background, but am aware of that "yang" in me and try to keep my "yin" in balance--I digress). I often found that when I was reading Sitchin, my left-brain kicked into questioning mode of his theories. But perhaps that was a left-brain (me) challenging another left-brain (Sitchin)?

In the interview, Shirley states to Clow, "You know how he [Sitchin] is or can be." Question: What did Shirley mean? Anyone know?

Namaste from the Midwest,
stephanie

ban 10-05-2013 08:32 AM


Hi,

Thanks for the clarification – I didn’trealize you had just been listening to the interview I mean shortly before Iasked the question – fun to get such a quick response :) .

I actually remember that comment youmention but not the whole interview so I’m going to listen to the interviewagain as soon as I can (quicktime audio issues on my part – dealing with a lotof tech at the moment very frustrating!)

I remember thinking though that the commentwas sort of mysterious – and got the impression they were saying like he was certainabout his opinion and wouldn’t really listen to alternatives. But I could be remembering or interpreting itwrong not to mention totally interpreting it wrong.

As to the ‘left brained’ definition/comment– I think more precisely for what I was trying to express the word ‘literal’would apply.


I don’t believe Sitchin and others took/takeinto account the people in the past experiencing life differently – different dimensionsbeing part of their everyday. Sort oflike natives will talk about shamans visiting other worlds etc. and it sounds like 'real people'. It's not the same as real physical people - but it is real. If that makes sense.

As well, there are things now like plasma eventsthat have happened in the past (plasma cosmologists just are starting tounderstand this) – that I don’t believe Sitchin considered either.(there's a story natives in the south west have about the Grand Canyon being created by a lightning bolt - sounds far fetched but then lightning is plasma - and interplanetary plasma bolts are possible under certain conditions - which is all sort of wow! when you think about it - ok, maybe that's just me!)

But, getting back to ZS (Sitchin) like I said, I haven’t read the bookthrough.


As for the ‘left brain’. I thought you might be interested in adifferent interpretation of brain activity – it’s actually probably morehelpful, in my opinion.

I’m reading a book (Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind) at the moment that describes it as ‘d-mode’ and ‘undermind’.

The fast brainis the pre-frontal cortex – runs on beta waves (both left and right sides – theright side doing this is like ‘brainstorming’ - ) – anything fast is thatprefrontal brain.

But as you probably know, we have more thanour prefrontal brain – it’s the smallest bit, actually – and the other partsrun on slower waves.


Both brains can be fallible – I don’t havethe book handy now but there’s a couple of little ‘experiments’ that show howwe can think and get misled in either way. Quite fun and fascinating in my opinion.


Society favours the d-mode/prefrontalthinking styles (fast styles like you mentioned) – but they aren’t always the best for any given situation. Still, without them we wouldn’t be humaneither J.


Sorry, I’m a pisces, I feel a bit sorry forthe oft-maligned pre-frontal or even left- brain. I don’t want society slipping into a medieval(pre-enlightenment) view of logic and reason and quick thinking always beingwrong – I mean the enlightenment happened for a reason! The undermind can get stuck and do stupid,superstitious things too.


Anyway, hope some of that made sense I'm not exactly editing well :) all for now.


Hope you have a nice weekend.


Norma Rae 10-07-2013 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freesia16
(1) I don’t believe Sitchin and others took/takeinto account the people in the past experiencing life differently – different dimensionsbeing part of their everyday. Sort oflike natives will talk about shamans visiting other worlds etc. and it sounds like 'real people'. It's not the same as real physical people - but it is real. If that makes sense.

* * *
(2) As for the ‘left brain’. I thought you might be interested in adifferent interpretation of brain activity – it’s actually probably morehelpful, in my opinion.

I’m reading a book (Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind) at the moment that describes it as ‘d-mode’ and ‘undermind’.


* * *

(3) Sorry, I’m a pisces, . . .



Hello Freesia!

(1) Great observation! When you listen to the interview with Clow, you'll discover that this is one of her issues with Sitchin as well.

(2) This sounds like a fantastic book! I am adding it to my reading list. Thank you so much. Questions like this often come up in my continued yoga teacher training, so I can't wait to take a look at it myself.

(3) No worries, Pisces. I am an Aries with Leo rising--in other words, watch out! ;)

Namaste from the Midwest,
steph

ban 10-08-2013 02:26 PM

Hi Stephanie,

I'm onto the Barbara Clow audio - I'll let you know when I finish.

I actually had to return 'Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind' to the library - only one copy and it's on hold for someone else - frustrating. I will have to get back to it when I get it back from the library.

What I like about it is the balance it gives - Guy Claxton, the author, studied under various Buddhist masters though I believe that he got a degree in, well, something - I didn't actually make note of that!

I did get another one of his books out as an ebook - called Noises from the Darkroom - it's about evolution of the mind -
Starting from an evolutionary perspective, Guy Claxton shows how the mind has emerged from the brain, and how, along the way, some crucial misapprehensions have slipped into our unconscious models of ourselves. Through its masterly and engaging synthesis of different perspectives, Noises from the Darkroom offers a view of the totality of the human brain-mind that illuminates clearly both its blind alleys and its potentialities.

Have no idea if it's any good but sounded interesting and I am curious to read my first ebook - one that I borrowed from the library, I mean.

Are you still interested in discussing Sitchin? I have put a hold on that again - should get it by the end of the month.

I actually wanted to share a theory of evolution that I read about over the summer. When I say read I mean I was reading a book called 'The Body Electric' about electromagnetism and the foundation of life (it's very very well written. All about the experiments R. Becker did in relation to regeneration of limbs - sounds very techy but the man who wrote it or helped write it - Selden - did an amazing job and it's very easy to read for all the technical science stuff in it.)

Anyway, in the book is mentioned a theory of how life started which I think was very interesting. I believe you may have pointed out about the 'soup' idea - that we came out of some mixture of primordial soup or something -

I mean we as in - life on this planet.

In the book, though, there was mention of a theory that says that maybe the first 'life' was actually in non-organic matter. Apparently certain elements like silicon I think he said can create a sort of primitave 'nervous system' all on their own and so react to things like lava and move away (pain) -

The idea is after these primative nervous systems developed then the organic matter could have joined together with it and created 'life' as we know it -

It's all very molecular and quantum energy related but as I said it was very easy to read. Though this fascinating theory was a mere side note. I'm trying to either buy the book or get it out again (long waiting list) just to get the details - and read it again.

As for you being an Aries with Leo rising - lol -no worries. . . watch out . . .that's sort of contradictory! Scorch! Two fire signs -

But what is your moon sign (emotional nature)?

BTW in terms of yoga - do you see that as a spiritual or purely physical practise?

My cousin teaches yoga and though I don't know her that well she was interviewed saying a lot of people use it purely for physical reasons but it's a spiritual practise at it's best - or something like that. I'm apparently no good at quoting things!

Freesia

Norma Rae 10-10-2013 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freesia16
Hi Stephanie,

(1) I'm onto the Barbara Clow audio - I'll let you know when I finish.

(2) What I like about it is the balance it gives - Guy Claxton, the author, studied under various Buddhist masters though I believe that he got a degree in, well, something - I didn't actually make note of that!

(3) I did get another one of his books out as an ebook - called Noises from the Darkroom - it's about evolution of the mind -
Starting from an evolutionary perspective, Guy Claxton shows how the mind has emerged from the brain, and how, along the way, some crucial misapprehensions have slipped into our unconscious models of ourselves. Through its masterly and engaging synthesis of different perspectives, Noises from the Darkroom offers a view of the totality of the human brain-mind that illuminates clearly both its blind alleys and its potentialities.

(4) Are you still interested in discussing Sitchin? I have put a hold on that again - should get it by the end of the month.

(5) I actually wanted to share a theory of evolution that I read about over the summer. When I say read I mean I was reading a book called 'The Body Electric' about electromagnetism and the foundation of life . . . a theory that says that maybe the first 'life' was actually in non-organic matter. . . .

(6) As for you being an Aries with Leo rising - lol -no worries. . . watch out . . .that's sort of contradictory! Scorch! Two fire signs - But what is your moon sign (emotional nature)?

(7) BTW in terms of yoga - do you see that as a spiritual or purely physical practise? My cousin teaches yoga and though I don't know her that well she was interviewed saying a lot of people use it purely for physical reasons but it's a spiritual practise at it's best - or something like that. I'm apparently no good at quoting things!

Freesia


Hello Freesia and All! First, Freesia, please forgive me numbering your observations in such a linear fashion. I do not mean to try to net your Pisces ways! (That reminds me of a Buddhist saying about being in the moment: "Real Buddha is a fish just netted leaping and jumping." I digress.) It just helps me respond (I'm a lawyer, too, and I can't let go of my lawyerin' ways sometimes) . . .

(1) I just got a book by David Ian Cowan (another interviewee of Shirley's) called Navigating the Collapse of Time, and the foreword is by Barbara Hand Clow. I recall SM's interview with David Cowan being great and remember thinking that this guy is stunningly bright! Can't wait to read the book.

(2) I love reading about Buddhism, its theory and practice. It makes the most sense to me--so far--as to how to (try) to live my daily life. So that makes the book even more intriguing to me.

(3) My yoga teacher--Tias Little--loves exploring the "two" brains and spends much time in his teacher trainings on such matters--the "reptilian" subtle mind and the over-thinking, analytical, left-brain. I wonder if Tias is familiar with Claxton? . . .

(4) Yes! And what a wonderful library and community you must live in that such authors are in such demand that you have to put holds on books that are now 30 years old! I think I'm the only one around here checking out such books!

(5) I love the idea of "life" coming from non-organic matter! From dust to dust, eh?

(6) Ha! Scorch, indeed! My moon sign is Sagittarius. What does that say? A firey flaming trifecta?! ;) I'm sad to say that I've never actually had an astrological reading. Guess I'm in the right place for that here, though, eh? I'll have to get Sandra Helton to do a chart for me sometime soon?

(7) Ah yoga . . . for me, the cure to any trouble. I see it, primarily, as a spiritual practice. The physical--or asana--part is only one limb of the 8-fold yogic path. Training in the physical limbs of the yogic path lead to the deepening of the spiritual practice and ultimately a lovely journey to nirvana/samadhi.

Namaste from the Midwest,
steph

ban 10-14-2013 07:06 PM

Hi Steph,

I like the numbering. :)

I read the other day it’s good to stick to one point when expressing things – not my strong suit! As long as you don’t get into legalise – them thar’ big words and such - no problem!

Quote:
Real Buddha is a fish just netted leaping and jumping

I understand you are a vegetarian – can I assume this is a catch and release fish then?;)

Now for my turn at the numbers . . .

(1) Is David Ian Cowan the guy who talked about how our bedrooms might not exist if we are not in them? That freaked my brain out a bit. I was the kind of kid who was sure that my toys came to life -I used to open and shut the door very fast to catch them. I never did. My conclusion - I wasn't fast enough!

(2 and 3) - sort of messing up the numbers here - : ) It would be interesting to know if your yoga teacher has heard of him - I can only remember he mentioned OSHO - but I don't know if he's buddhist - there were some other names too - did I mention I had to give the book back? he new book seems more like a philsophy of mind book I haven't gotten into it yet.

(4) It is quite wonderful to have a great library system - Apparently it's one of the best or the best in the world - sources: Wikipedia and TripAdvisor haha - hey, pick and choose your sources, I say! But seriously, I do love it. It is one of the things that makes me wonder if I'd ever leave the city. But then I did just discover 'interlibrary loans' so . . . About the 30 year old books - I find it both fascinating and frustrating to find books a decade of more old and I think - what was I doing while I was not reading this??!! Then I've found some quite old things - turn of the last century - where people are writing about theories that are just resurfacing - mind blowing - why don't they get general acceptance earlier . . . I suppose you can move into conspiracy theories then - or just put it down to the world not being ready - depending on your mood or time of day - or maybe your sign . . .which leads to (6)

(5) 'dust to dust' that's just what I thought - actually - I wondered - did some intelligent being a la Sitchin's annunaki come down and try to explain it to us and all we got was 'we're made of clay' - I mean wouldn't you have to really simplify some ideas if they were so far ahead of where we were?

(6) Hmmmm moon in Sagitarrius - do you want the good news or the bad news - just kidding! I'm a moon in Gemini - so Air opposite your fire - my best friend is a Sagg moon - here's what I know very idealistic - will fight the good fight. Doesn't suffer fools well -

You sure do have a lot of fire! It's interesting to me because I have a lot of different elements in my chart - poses different challenges. I think it would be easier to align things if they were all the same element or complementary (air/fire or earth/water) - but then having only one - maybe it can get easily exaggerated? I have one sign - venus in Aries - which has led me to wonder if our cultures have created ideas of what each sign is about and sort of skewed them for us. Like since we are in a very yang/fiery time - are our fire elements over 'nourished' - would we recognize that fire in balance? Can you have a balance in a fiery time or is the balance then different from a non-fiery time?

I've wondered because that fire plays against water - opposites and i've had the fire drag my poor little water sign around and acheived great success outwardly but inwardly - ouch!

What's your experience with your fire - I think you must make quite the lawyer!

I haven't had a chart done by Sandra Helton - but yes, that would be the place to start here.

(7) I didn't know there was an 8 fold yogic path. Very interesting - sounds very profound - my only experience was in a much shallower version at a local continuing ed course where the teacher said after a particular pose - "Be careful not to snap your neck". I quit when I realized she wasn't kidding and we hadn't actually been taught how to do the pose well! A spiritual yoga makes much more sense.

(8) new point - I just received news that the 12th planet is back at the library - so I will start on that and get to Clow's interview too. It was Thanksgiving up here this weekend so I took it relatively easy.

Maybe you can help me understand though - why does America celebrate Columbo? I mean I liked the show and Falk was a good actor but a whole day? :p (joke, possibly a bad one!)

Hope you had a nice weekend.

Norma Rae 10-22-2013 01:03 PM

Hello! So sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your thoughtful post. I've been traveling (some pleasure/some work/in the midst of it still now), work in between, and not much down time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freesia16
Hi Steph,
I understand you are a vegetarian – can I assume this is a catch and release fish then?;)

You understand correctly! I am a vegetarian (10 years). I like the idea of hunting/fishing for yourself better, actually, than shopping at the local grocery store, but yes...for now...I'd neither catch nor release. ;)
You might be interested in that whole Buddhist saying. It goes something like this:

"Hey! . . . Were you talking about Old Buddha? Why, . . . Old Buddha is no Buddha. Real Buddha is a fish just netted, leaping and jumping."

So, the dharma is not something or someone that happened or said something in the past. The real dharma practice is whatever comes into our net--our practice, our life--at each and every moment. The moment, the now is the perfect teacher.

What do you think?

Quote:

Now for my turn at (some of) the numbers . . .

(1) Is David Ian Cowan the guy who talked about how our bedrooms might not exist if we are not in them? That freaked my brain out a bit. I was the kind of kid who was sure that my toys came to life -I used to open and shut the door very fast to catch them. I never did. My conclusion - I wasn't fast enough!


Hmmm? I do not recall that part of the interview, but I brought his book along The Collapse of Time, which I'll start after I finish Autobiography of a Yogi (maybe about 1/2 through) and Dancing in the Light (just started).

Quote:
(4) . . . About the 30 year old books - I find it both fascinating and frustrating to find books a decade of more old and I think - what was I doing while I was not reading this??!!

I know what you mean! My little 30-something year old world has just started to become more awakened within the last 3 years or so, and I am only now (there's that word again) reading authors like Sitchen, Cayce, (yes, even Shirley), Vedic and Buddhist texts. I suppose we all have our own individual journeys to the Path (as the Buddha in the net might say).

Huh? . . . this part of our conversation also reminds me of another saying from the Diamond Sutra (I think!) . . . "I and all beings simultaneously realize the Way." I like that. I and all beings simultaneously realize the Way. All that is reality happens simultaneously, eh? . . . Huh? . . .

Quote:
Then I've found some quite old things - turn of the last century - where people are writing about theories that are just resurfacing - mind blowing - why don't they get general acceptance earlier . . .


Sitchin might say the Nefelim/Anunnaki/etc. had something to do with those memory lapses?

Quote:
(5) 'dust to dust' that's just what I thought - actually - I wondered - did some intelligent being a la Sitchin's annunaki come down and try to explain it to us and all we got was 'we're made of clay' - I mean wouldn't you have to really simplify some ideas if they were so far ahead of where we were?


I don't know if Sitchin would say Ennki or Enlil (I cannot now recall which had/has the affinity towards humans and ultimately granted the knowledge of agriculture, etc.) wanted us to advance any. I think much of his theories is that we were just supposed to dig the gold from the gold mines and have no aspirations for higher intelligence or knowing god. We were a grand compromise between the gods and the Anunnaki who were fed up with doing all the grunt work--the first collectively bargained agreement!

Quote:
(6) Hmmmm moon in Sagitarrius - do you want the good news or the bad news - just kidding! I'm a moon in Gemini - so Air opposite your fire - my best friend is a Sagg moon - here's what I know very idealistic - will fight the good fight. Doesn't suffer fools well -


For better or for worse, that is a pretty darn good description of me.

Quote:
You sure do have a lot of fire! It's interesting to me because I have a lot of different elements in my chart - poses different challenges. I think it would be easier to align things if they were all the same element or complementary (air/fire or earth/water) - but then having only one - maybe it can get easily exaggerated?


Of course, my dosha is also pitta (with very little of any other element). I can absolutely get out out of balance with too much firey passion, but I have found that the yoga, meditation, and vegetarian/ayruvedic diet balance me out superbly.

How do you balance your watery Pisces and airy (I presume your dosha is likely Vatta) qualities? I think Yoga, again, could help really ground that vatta-ness. Obviously, any grounding pose--and even inversions like headstands--will get your feet back solidly on the ground.

Quote:
I have one sign - venus in Aries - which has led me to wonder if our cultures have created ideas of what each sign is about and sort of skewed them for us. Like since we are in a very yang/fiery time - are our fire elements over 'nourished' - would we recognize that fire in balance? Can you have a balance in a fiery time or is the balance then different from a non-fiery time?


This is interesting. You are right, this is certainly a fiery/yang moment in time, isn't it? I think us fire signs tend to thrive in such an environment (that is, we think we like it), but what we really need and deep down crave is cooling tranquility--yoga, again. So . . .What is the conclusion? More yoga and meditation for all? Not a bad prescription, I'd say.

What say you?

Quote:
What's your experience with your fire - I think you must make quite the lawyer!


I think being a fire sign (not to mention a triple fire and a pitta) probably certainly helps me find the passion in practicing law. However, I've been doing it long enough now that I've learned that cooler heads (including such tricks as levity, compassion for your "opponent," and maintaining a good sense of humor) usually prevail, which is good for me because incorporating such coolness balances my passionate fire to protect and defend my client with zeal and usually results in better outcomes. Yoga (again!) and meditation each morning before I hit the ground running with law has also helped so much!

And sanghas (communities) like this one where I can turn to and remember that there is more to this Life than what I have been conditioned to perceive, more than what I have been conditioned to believe help so much in balancing the fire not only in my little self, but also the world.

The energy of The Sangha (this sangha included) is so very important to the quality of survival of this existence. I am so blessed to be part of your sangha here in the cherry pit and look forward to growing with you all for the remainder of this incarnation here.

Quote:

(7) I didn't know there was an 8 fold yogic path. Very interesting - sounds very profound - my only experience was in a much shallower version at a local continuing ed course where the teacher said after a particular pose - "Be careful not to snap your neck". I quit when I realized she wasn't kidding and we hadn't actually been taught how to do the pose well! A spiritual yoga makes much more sense.


It's actually called the 8 limbs of yoga (Buddhism has a similar "8 fold path" tradition). The 8 limbs of yoga are . . . yama, niyama, asana (physical yoga practice), pranayama, pratyahara, dharana, dyana, samadhi. Look 'em up!

Quote:
(8) new point - I just received news that the 12th planet is back at the library - so I will start on that and get to Clow's interview too. It was Thanksgiving up here this weekend so I took it relatively easy.


YAY! Can't wait to talk with you about The 12th Planet!

Quote:
Maybe you can help me understand though - why does America celebrate Columbo? I mean I liked the show and Falk was a good actor but a whole day? :p (joke, possibly a bad one!)


Funny! I wish I could understand why we "celebrate" Columbus Day, too!

Quote:
Hope you had a nice weekend.


Thanks! I did! I'll be in Santa Fe with my partner doing various interesting and fun things (and also seeing and practicing with my yoga teacher Tias Little) this weekend, so should be a blast! Hope you have a lovely weekend, too, and that your week has been proceeding peacefully!

Namaste (temporarily) from the Vegas strip,
stephanie

ban 10-28-2013 04:21 PM

Hi there,
I hope you are having a good time - still :)
Quote:
You might be interested in that whole Buddhist saying. It goes something like this:

"Hey! . . . Were you talking about Old Buddha? Why, . . . Old Buddha is no Buddha. Real Buddha is a fish just netted, leaping and jumping."

So, the dharma is not something or someone that happened or said something in the past. The real dharma practice is whatever comes into our net--our practice, our life--at each and every moment. The moment, the now is the perfect teacher.

What do you think?


In terms of now being the perfect teacher - I wonder if there's a difference between what can be learned if there is a concept of enlightenment (however it's understood - Christ Consciousness; higher self; idealism etc) - and if there is no such concept.

In the first instance, the 'now' would provide the experiences and so lead to a particular kind of learning and in the other, it would lead to another -

I suppose both experiences of 'learning' could lead a person to enlightenment and also away from it - but I think that I agree with plato - I think it was plato - there's something more when you 'know' - ie if you know you can learn and it's in the context of a greater whole - then what you can learn could be greater -

Though I could be biased!

How's that for both answering, and not really answering a question :D not done on purpose, I assure you!


Quote:
"I and all beings simultaneously realize the Way." I like that. I and all beings simultaneously realize the Way. All that is reality happens simultaneously, eh? . . . Huh? . . .


LOL I love it - you are so full of quotations - I always wanted to be able to quote cool things!

That idea of all that is reality happens at the same time - is that meaning all lifetimes or just that we all exist in this time at the same time - and so it's like most profound things there's an aspect of - 'well, duh!' if you get down to it - yes it's all happening now - when else would it be? Pass the potato chips! (I know - there is a more profound level than this! I'm teasing - which may not go over well - it's a bad habit - forgive me!)

Quote:
Sitchin might say the Nefelim/Anunnaki/etc. had something to do with those memory lapses?


I'm just starting in on the 12th planet - I will go back and look at your posts and respond as I know what the heck he's on about! On first glance, that seems a rather depressing idea - but then when I read your subsequent comment about the Annunaki -

Quote:
I don't know if Sitchin would say Ennki or Enlil (I cannot now recall which had/has the affinity towards humans and ultimately granted the knowledge of agriculture, etc.) wanted us to advance any. I think much of his theories is that we were just supposed to dig the gold from the gold mines and have no aspirations for higher intelligence or knowing god. We were a grand compromise between the gods and the Anunnaki who were fed up with doing all the grunt work--the first collectively bargained agreement!


I thought it was very interesting because I'd just been reading about myths - how people created oral stories and passed them down - some were real events and some were based on real events and others were about themes that societies felt were important to remember. Morality and value things, I suppose. Meaning of life. That sort of thing - and these could be purely allegorical.

I wondered when you described the situation as you did - 'first collectively bargained agreement' - how could we know that this wasn't about an idea being passed down?

The little bit I've looked into this story I did from an historical perspective first (I studied history and english so it was a natural direction for me to take, I suppose) - and I never realized that 3000 BC was a time where there was environmental degradation in the middle east - they were chopping down all sorts of huge, ancient trees - and I know that 3000 BC is just when the story started to be put down - so I wondered - what was going on even before that that I didn't know about.

Do you know any of Frank Joseph's work? He's got some very interesting ideas of ancient prehistory - Even outside of these alternative works though, historians have found things like a shirt in Eastern Europe that is 30,000 years old that is so finely woven it's like a Brooks Brother's shirt.

Some people say that's a sign we had aliens telling people how to do things but I wonder if it's not more comfortable to believe that then to know that we may have been at the level of ability we are at now - even higher and we somehow screwed it up in ways that we could be doing again.

I think that's actually what Cayce would be saying in terms of Atlantis.

Anyway, not to wander too far around - I'll stop - and read some more and look back on your posts/questions.

Oh, haha - I did also wonder, "Norma Rae", if you weren't projecting into the story re: collective barganing just a little bit - I'll let you know when I've read more. :D

Quote:
How do you balance your watery Pisces and airy (I presume your dosha is likely Vatta) qualities? I think Yoga, again, could help really ground that vatta-ness. Obviously, any grounding pose--and even inversions like headstands--will get your feet back solidly on the ground.


I haven't looked into the Ayurvedic ideas - I got into Chinese Medicine which, interestingly, uses 5 elements to describe people (or at least their state of health - not sure if they apply it to personality) as well. Didn't Buddha come from India or something? I suppose there would have been a trading of other ideas as well.

I did do a test online though just to see and I came up pretty much balanced in the three which is sort of interesting because I was told astrologically my chart is balanced in all the elelments - which poses different challenges than having all the same or similar energies -

Quote:
So . . .What is the conclusion? More yoga and meditation for all? Not a bad prescription, I'd say.

What say you?


I think you have the right idea about meditation and yoga - a nice, compliment - something to raise your energy up to those higher levels and something to keep you connected to the earth - grounded.

I read once that kundalini which is about higher energy coming in wasn't the only energy movement - there's another - the opposite kind - moving from the earth outward - do you know anything about that?

I think that energy isn't about the material world - but more earth energy - I think the world we've created the 'material' world is more a product of unbalanced minds. By which I don't mean insane - just unbalanced energetically :D I wonder what kind of society we would create if we were all energetically balanced . . .


Quote:
It's actually called the 8 limbs of yoga (Buddhism has a similar "8 fold path" tradition). The 8 limbs of yoga are . . . yama, niyama, asana (physical yoga practice), pranayama, pratyahara, dharana, dyana, samadhi.

Look 'em up!


Look 'em up! LOL Yes Ma'am - (actually, I will, eventually, will get back to you when I do!)

By the way, how you described the way you work with your energies and how it affects your 'lawyering' gives me hope for the whole profession.

I hope you have had a great trip and enjoyed both Vegas and Santa Fe. Did you win any money in Vegas? I swear I could have been a problem gambler! Maybe it was a good thing my piscean energy was somewhat ignored over the years!

Freesia


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